00:00:00: [Music]

00:00:07: [Music]

00:00:15: Welcome to another episode in the which the team here has podcast and today I'm very happy I can speak with Jennifer Riggins from the Aginext Community in the UK.

00:00:25: We would like to speak about psychological safety in the workplace because we both see it's a very important topic at the moment and it's,

00:00:37: becoming more and more important in the future workplaces. Jennifer, I'm very happy I to have you here in this episode as an interview partner

00:00:50: Please introduce yourself a bit so that our listeners get to know you better

00:00:57: what you doing where you're from.

00:01:04: Hi Nadine I'm Jennifer Riggins I am a tech Storyteller which means I do various things around the

00:01:14: Tech world so but I'm not technical I've never coded day my life it can be mostly journalism or podcast hosting

00:01:23: and including a podcast,

00:01:26: what we talk about when we want to talk about tech any project I'm working on and the reason I'm here today is long-term passion project I've been working on has been the a g next Community which is a community for experimentation with an agile mindset

00:01:42: advice support and psychological safety and Nadine I believe you are hosting a

00:01:50: Workshop our upcoming first edition event on the day of psychological safety which is just.

00:01:58: Especially after the last year we've had were made 2021 now.

00:02:04: We need a focus on that we found that the companies that were most successful in 2020 because I was the sudden

00:02:12: by coincidence covid reporter if you cover it at the culture side of tech the new stack and at other Publications

00:02:22: definitely there were some architectural infrastructural,

00:02:26: similarities with the tech backed companies which basically is every company right now any large company is Tech.

00:02:36: Or any company that was successful Embrace technology because they had to deliver your something last year but the thing the Common Thread that wove between them all

00:02:45: the success cases where that people were safe to fail that there was a sense of belonging in the company they,

00:02:53: did stupid things that may have been stupid and more burn out of now like quizzes and party nights and things but.

00:02:59: They were successful because they took care of the whole person coming to the office

00:03:04: even though they were coming remotely mostly though still there were essential workers and they took care of the whole person they embrace the whole person instead of saying this is work this is home because,

00:03:15: that all went to hell this last year everything was everything.

00:03:19: Yeah let's maybe start with the term psychological safety I think it's not a new one it's it's more common in the our child workplace,

00:03:31: last year but now companies in leaders and teams,

00:03:37: have to deal with that and for them of most of them it's new term psychological safety and they wander or what what's their it is about do I have to be a psychologist now finally the team

00:03:50: what is psychology safety and why it's more become mean more important,

00:03:57: in the workplace we have in the hybrid workplace which will workplace what's changing now in companies.

00:04:05: Well you're a guest of your our fries yeah to paraphrase Nirvana's psychological safeties come as you are come as you were.

00:04:16: If we're to be successful and we're supposed to move fast and feel safe in releasing code to feel safe and.

00:04:25: Experimenting at work.

00:04:27: It's a bit feel safe and speaking up if we're not sure about something as right look what's happening at Google and other Industries like other companies are trying to squash whistleblowers or people.

00:04:39: The truth talking the truth that companies if you want to be successful and truly Innovative people have to feel safe to fail which is psychological safety.

00:04:49: Is it measurable.

00:04:51: I don't know so maybe it's kind of ironic that it's so popular in the agile space but also it's very popular in the HR space anything management leadership it is a hot hashtag it is a buzzword but.

00:05:06: I think it's a dramatic demand there's a dramatic demand for it and the companies that.

00:05:12: Embraced that in the cultural change in the suddenly moving to room work.

00:05:18: Hybrid work soon or now they're the ones that were most successful so I think everyone's talking about.

00:05:26: How people can bring their whole selves to work because people suddenly were kids were at home people you were in people's homes you were seeing their homes and.

00:05:36: They don't want to go back to that like yeah maybe some people do want to go back to the office that works for some people totally especially if you live by yourself or something or.

00:05:47: Maybe you want to go back to the office a couple days a week that's a moment for collaboration.

00:05:52: Or once a month you get together for a week like I'm more of a Retreats more productive things like that instead of checking the boxes it's about trusting people to be who they want to be who they are.

00:06:07: And including them yes it's very important that have focus on personal preferences in the workplace,

00:06:16: people and also know people they say I want to go back to the office because I feel safe there I have more focus and productive and it's okay.

00:06:27: And there are people who say okay I would like to do remotely work remotely 100% and some people say I go back for socializing only or have some training or workshops with my colleagues but

00:06:40: then people have to speak up of fields feel.

00:06:45: That they can speak up about the preferences and that he does don't say you have to go back to the office.

00:06:54: Without asking the preferences and I think the safety workplace it's all psychological safety is important in the hyperlink place because they have different,

00:07:05: configurations and context people work in and they have to speak up.

00:07:10: How would they feel if they have all the information to do the work or when the mistakes happen.

00:07:18: To address this can I actually do this

00:07:22: when I'm alone at home or at the workplace can I give feedback on that so speaking up when I'm in the office I also always have the same context where work in so I recognize more.

00:07:36: From people when they not when they feel bad or when mistakes happen you speak up or people feel more,

00:07:45: yeah safer speaking up or ask a colleague then,

00:07:50: when you are at home alone or I think it's all so I don't know what's your opinion it's also difference between introvert people and extrovert people.

00:08:01: I think the introverts.

00:08:03: Don't speak that much up then the extroverts or they don't know how to connect with people so you have also isolation so this whole hybrids or virtually work environment is a.

00:08:17: Totally different context for working,

00:08:20: hybrid has been the thing if you talk to like Judy Reese or less at Sutherland who are part of our community and our remote experts they've always four years or t they've always spoken up.

00:08:34: Avoid hybrid meetings whenever possible there are certain tricks you can do with a hybrid meeting like the person that's remote gets always the right to speak first I don't think most teams do this but there

00:08:46: in the less privileged side but when you talk about hybrid teams switch

00:08:51: the software industry should logically be better at than most because they've always worked with offshoring and Outsourcing but have they treated that equally but it's

00:09:02: a real risk for creating an equality the number one reason for companies to go hybrid or to bring people back to the office

00:09:11: is not,

00:09:12: a culture it's not their teams it's real estate if they have they're not up on their lease in the next six months they want people back in the office because they're paying for that.

00:09:21: Should we that whenever you're thinking about the bottom line like that you're never thinking about your staffs well-being I think the main problem that happened in 2020.

00:09:34: Or the hottest hashtag is not even psychological safety it's burnout yes but

00:09:40: the statistic and again I come with a reference of a tech industry are event psychological safety is open much broader than that because it touches on anyone especially if you're on a leadership position or you're trying to find a way to make your work

00:09:53: less toxic though if your work if you work at a toxic culture will help you find a new job it's not fixable but the statistic was

00:10:04: sixty-eight percent of people in the tech industry were burnt out in 2020 but 61 percent

00:10:13: or burn out in 2019 so seven percent because of pandemic doesn't seem like that dramatic of an increase.

00:10:21: The increase there's a problem we're addicted to burn out.

00:10:26: And that's not okay and people are not doing their best work because they're doing this presenteeism and that gets worse,

00:10:35: when you're in like a hybrid situation where the remote workers have to pretend they're always working or work harder and competes who's working later during the day.

00:10:47: And that's not okay so the problem when you bring hybrid is.

00:10:53: Who gets that because as my friend Maya middle masts who also works in the space like you do in the remote work industry

00:11:01: I guess it's an industry now right she pointed out how,

00:11:08: usually traditionally flexible work came with status in the normal corporate environment if you were a high enough level,

00:11:17: you not only had an office where you didn't have the often toxic or very damaging especially for introvert open Office Space we've found often offices don't really work

00:11:29: but you didn't even have to worry about that because you probably had an office at that point and then you also have the ability to work from home because you had reached that point of trust so it was considered almost like,

00:11:39: a part of a bonus structure or something so now you have to decide,

00:11:44: who gets the right to work from home when and then there's also a whole other level of logistics because,

00:11:51: you can't have everyone coming the office on Wednesdays now because offices are downsizing.

00:11:56: And then there's the offshoot of that like hold the city of London which is the financial district of London.

00:12:03: Is dying a bit because a lot of companies at least one in six companies aren't going back to an office at all which is great but then there are a whole Industries there's pret there's all these different.

00:12:16: Places built around it so it's it's obscenely more complex hybrid is,

00:12:22: and it involves so many more human characteristics and the ability to speak up and have a voice then any other combination than remote fully or fully in person it's hard.

00:12:34: I don't have any overview what's happening with the functions District in Frankfort to have to go over the big

00:12:42: skyscrapers but I know companies said oh we switching the office too,

00:12:49: yes socializing.

00:12:53: Place you don't have room for yourself now or with with a fixed text you sit on so.

00:13:02: I know companies say okay no desk no fixed ask and you come.

00:13:08: As you are when you would like when you would like to socialize and I don't know what's happening I mean they're building many skyscrapers at the moment in Frankfurt but they started before the pandemic,

00:13:20: and I don't what's happening now Mary War if we were there for the first time which is the other Financial District of London that was kind of like artificially built so Canary Wharf we were there this weekend for the first time just for socialize and.

00:13:35: I mean there's like 20 new skyscrapers they did not stop building in the last year and a half but I don't know who's going to occupy them yeah I don't know either so,

00:13:44: let's see it's very interesting but obviously I think burnout it's.

00:13:54: It's a it's caused by bad organization.

00:13:58: Or some fatigue is also bad organization balancing out synchronous and asynchronous Berg you need the right balance

00:14:06: I know team leaders to say you should be on line 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. the whole time.

00:14:15: Or they have meetings from the morning to the whole day so it's bad organization and psychological safety in a hybrid workplace or which workplace it's for me is also to speak about Mental Health.

00:14:29: So people feel safe to speak about speak out,

00:14:33: I'm burnt out or an open up I feel I have a huge workload I'm stressed from too many online meetings because working online is,

00:14:46: totally different thing than working collaborating face-to-face or face-to-face meeting

00:14:52: online meetings need much more is much more stressful there's also good study from the Stanford University why online meetings are so stressful for people,

00:15:04: always looking at like into the mirror you see yourself all the time it's one factor but people have to speak out about mental health and I know,

00:15:16: people have fear when they speak about or I have issues with mental health at the moment because of all the consensus that colleagues and leaders say,

00:15:26: you are under performer because they used to be an underperformer when they say I have issues with mental health.

00:15:34: But now it's switching when you have issues with mental health you are not an underperformer or you have to be you have to feel safe that you're not,

00:15:44: Courtney underperformer,

00:15:47: you you say okay we should overthink our whole organization and communication in that workplace it is also a huge factor for me in the hybrid workplace.

00:16:00: It's really bad how we've stigmatize mental health issues for so long and.

00:16:07: I can't speak outside the tech lens it seems like it's a trend to be very open about your mental health issues I'm not sure if that pendulum will swing back because people get retribution or not,

00:16:19: the tech industry is a special circumstance where we have more privileged than most where

00:16:26: there's this huge Talent Gap still and there's always another job around the corner but that also comes with privilege like people of color people that are caretakers for other people whether little or older not a people that have

00:16:40: especially people in the US have six figures of academic debt plus other debt like.

00:16:49: It's not something we can say we look at it as everyone has privileged just quit their job if they don't like it that's not really the case and that's sad but.

00:17:01: At least burnout.

00:17:03: Is being talked about and burnout has to be talked about in a different way than depression and bipolar disorder and ADHD and things like that because.

00:17:14: Burnout is often external factors causing it

00:17:17: but both need to be talked about and I think psychological safety is bring your whole self to work which is being open about

00:17:25: stop it also it's your choice to self-identify or not when it's something like race or maybe gender it's.

00:17:35: You don't get to self-identify either like you just come to it which is a whole other level of inequality and

00:17:42: we have to remember that when we are four were seeing people and I say people not just adults because I know kids that were on Zoom six hours a day like six year olds that were on Zoom six hours a day this last year.

00:17:56: You're putting people at risk when you're in their homes so when you are embracing remote work or you embracing work from home strategy.

00:18:05: You have to remember not everyone can turn on their camera every time like it's not.

00:18:11: It's not okay like to be in someone's personal space all the time and guess what virtual backgrounds didn't work for everyone they were beheading black people,

00:18:20: four months Zoom with literally beheading black people so they couldn't take advantage of virtual backgrounds or it will cut off certain hairstyles or and,

00:18:31: it's just not equal because Tech is an equal there is Tech is not neutral yeah pack is not a political.

00:18:38: Psychological safety always always has all this to do with diversity or more being more diverse and the team.

00:18:49: And yeah to which would Now is better for innovation.

00:18:54: Like its I think we both said innovation in the same time like we are certain that psychological safety diversity equity and inclusion lead to better teams better products better innovation,

00:19:07: more creative more creativity as well when you have more inclusion and yeah being diverse,

00:19:17: people keep people giving a voice then you have also more great creativity in the workplace it's also benefit.

00:19:27: So now we know more about what's happening at the moment and what's what are the benefits but talk about what candida is do too,

00:19:37: make workplace safe or to ensure up psychological safety.

00:19:43: It's I know it's a broad topic and yeah but maybe how can we start or what should we consider.

00:19:54: When we would like it's a hard place because every single role has something different they can do.

00:20:05: Because leaders is a roll

00:20:08: but it's not the only one like HR the whole HR System needs to be destroyed like notice that I'm avoiding Human Resources because we're not resources like the plague um but yeah there's a plug going on so maybe we can't use that turn of phrase anymore but

00:20:25: because everything.

00:20:32: In our current structure our current white supremacist structure there's no other way to describe it than that everything in the current structure is built to maintain the current structure and the current structure has to change it has to completely.

00:20:47: Be torn apart back from things like

00:20:50: requiring a University degree for a technical job that you can prove your ability or requiring a University degree I'm 37 my University degree was in political science it I loved it it did nothing it's,

00:21:04: has no value probably on my day-to-day besides the ability to bullshit well.

00:21:12: You need to hire different people you need to work hard and it's hard in everything we do we need to work to be more diverse it's extra effort you have to be willing to put in that extra effort you need to create,

00:21:27: a safe space like guidelines and principles that support.

00:21:32: You being able to speak up letting people know they can speak up.

00:21:38: Not doing a recommendation or a.

00:21:46: Review like an annual review what a stupid thing like you're not having a conversation with people doing really thoughtful onboarding like,

00:21:56: really allowing people to bring their whole selves I have a friend who is autism spectrum and they.

00:22:05: At their current company their new company they were able to write how they prefer to be communicated with.

00:22:12: How they work best should not everyone be having this conversation you start at a company how you work best.

00:22:21: Like what makes you most successful in terms of communication.

00:22:28: When people are leaving a company there definitely should be exit interviews.

00:22:34: And usually they're not and there's this assumption I heard the statistic and the person I don't have the citation of it so I'm not true not sure if it's true but it sounds great it said 92 percent of workplaces believe people are leaving for money.

00:22:49: Only 12% of people are leaving for money.

00:22:52: People by far and large are leaving an organization because of the management yes like because they have a bad manager far and large but companies think it's because of money.

00:23:03: But most people especially when you're talking about tech are making enough money that.

00:23:09: Or in management positions to are making enough money that that's not the motivator anymore it's that they want to get away from a toxic manager so we need to be asking a lot of questions and that's kind of where this

00:23:21: conference came about the psychological safety one on June 11th.

00:23:28: Are Dave's big logical safety is because people want to talk about it more an experiment and we're still 20 years ago agile was defined we're still defining what psychological safety is and I think it's something that's way harder to Define because.

00:23:44: Everyone needs to be a part of that definition agile was designed by think 14 white men definitely white man I'm just not sure the numbers correct just to clarify.

00:23:55: Everyone has to be a part of defining that definition it can't just be leadership it needs to be everyone but everyone has to be able to feel safe to speak up.

00:24:04: Yes you're right is also the colleagues they have to speak up in the team not but you have.

00:24:11: Okay if you have a good leader and you say you can speak up and you speak up and your colleagues say bad things about it it's also a.

00:24:20: Back issue so everybody should be have to an open mindset for speaking up I think it's a mindset shift.

00:24:29: And it's interesting what you saying that people don't leave the company because of money but because of other.

00:24:37: Issues or toxic management I think is also,

00:24:42: important that people are that companies give us a Purpose Driven give people a purpose to work there and then giving people at work,

00:24:53: purpose of a working day it's also getting to know your people what are their own motivators.

00:25:00: And what's their appropriate references and.

00:25:05: I think when When people's when he does ask me where to start.

00:25:12: I would recommend them or to reflection how often do you reach out to you,

00:25:18: people not to your team but to each single person like we have this management by walking around in your office do you this in the hybrid workplace and which workplace do you check in with your.

00:25:31: Employees and.

00:25:34: Okay you have Team stand-ups maybe but it's also important to check in with each person and just want to ask yes the one ones and just ask how do you feel do we have any,

00:25:47: problems do off all information to have always sources just weekly check-ins I think that's that's something where you can start.

00:25:57: At the leader and also to build trust that you can speak out and that a single check-ins is a 1-1 in a trusted place.

00:26:07: You can also say oh I have my workload is too much or I'm stressed we have so many meetings or.

00:26:15: My kids are told me the homeschooling I can't I'm not protective and that's time when you when you think I'm protective or something like that so the one ones it's always forgotten always.

00:26:28: It's an asynchronous communication they said like part of the burnout was everyone had more meetings last year or this year still.

00:26:40: Managers more than anybody and they had this whole this extra burden of organizing and orchestrating all those meetings so.

00:26:49: Maybe you need to make meetings more productive like how are you feeling how are you doing those are productive meetings and look at that as productivity tool get new information.

00:27:01: And then.

00:27:03: The stand-ups are often just updates so maybe they can be written in a slack Channel where they disappear because that is no long term

00:27:11: I don't know I'm one thing I keep thinking about is I think for a lot of people psychological safety is going to be a huge motivator for hiring now and like you said The Purpose Driven organization.

00:27:25: There are a lot of jobs right now all of a sudden we went from what is this famine.

00:27:33: To everything like Deluge I forget the turn of phrase.

00:27:38: It's just everywhere Feast we went from famine to feast and there are tons of jobs and I think it's going to make a difference because,

00:27:45: there are companies having the backless in the other direction Goldman Sachs is saying it's an aberration and they want people into the office the entire time were two thirds of.

00:27:56: All.

00:27:58: Of those types of Banks and investment Banks and things like that have said they're going to move to flexible work because people want it guess where most people are going to go there will be some people that want to be in the office all time so that's fine but they're going to have trouble just attracting people or.

00:28:13: Base camp we which is this famous this this tiny company like 50 60 people.

00:28:20: But the managers the two Founders have written these books on management that people idolize because we deify our Tech Bros like their gods

00:28:30: and then guess what happens they wrote like this tree species of idiocy in the form of a Blog saying.

00:28:38: They don't want to do 360-degree reviews because they're too positive.

00:28:42: They don't want any diversity inclusion or politics discussed in the workplace because Tech is apolitical and neutral.

00:28:51: Came Creighton's guiding principles the first one is Tech is not neutral nor a political there it's inherently not and they lost like two-thirds of their staff in one week.

00:29:02: And they're that now they're doubling down and traveling down like we're doing great we're hiring new people.

00:29:07: You had people that were 10-15 years working for that company or at least 10 years that all quit their jobs in one Mission how much notice they have from the company.

00:29:18: And from the technology to it's crazy yeah it's and they just went over and over again and double down triple down on that and they lost people and its inherent because.

00:29:30: I was paying attention to who was quitting because that's always interesting because it is a white privilege thing.

00:29:37: The people that were quitting very publicly that I saw were all white which may mean it's not a diverse company or it may mean.

00:29:44: People can't afford to quit things like that but one person that quit is death.

00:29:50: And all I could think of is every moment of his life is political.

00:29:56: Everything is built for a hearing persons World podcast were on a podcast right now hopefully we'll do subtitles or closed captioning on the YouTube video version but everything is political for him.

00:30:11: And now suddenly has to quit because he's not allowed to be political and they had just were about to start having a diversity inclusion committee and they're like no it must stop the,

00:30:21: there was no reason like people were fine but obviously that is a toxic work environment so there is a backlash like you know cancel culture or whatever.

00:30:31: But I think it's going to be if you can somehow proof and I guess the way to prove is Glassdoor people talking.

00:30:39: People talk about their company and they're either going to do what,

00:30:44: it's called the T-shirt test they're going to wear the T-shirt of their company when they're out their friends or they're going to talk shit.

00:30:50: And that's you don't want to be that company because you're not going to be able to recruit the best talent in any field and you're not going to be able to recruit.

00:30:59: Team that is diverse and inclusive and Embraces belonging because.

00:31:05: Word spreads online faster than ever yeah,

00:31:11: yeah that's great so it's approach topic from it's not about it's about mental health burnout it's about inclusion diversity,

00:31:21: I'm giving people a voice that they can speak up it's about feedback check-ins on ones.

00:31:35: Yeah I think the anchor of all of this is a having a good communication

00:31:41: or to avoid communication by us I know so many leaders they think they can communicate in the virtual workplace or hyper precisely to in the office.

00:31:52: And they haven't learned to,

00:31:58: writes messages correctly so that they understood or they that people know what their intentions are,

00:32:07: what they mean because there's also studies that people interpret messages or written messages more negative than positive.

00:32:16: And you have to when you have a synchronous work you have more written messages do more written documentation yeah and more written,

00:32:26: not more image but more in the chat or so people have to learn how to write messages that people get.

00:32:35: The right the right messages and not not the negative messages but,

00:32:41: it's also the communication by us we have in the workplace how to come something that's a workplace that people feel.

00:32:50: Understood and feel safe and,

00:32:53: know what to do and when you have leader also only riding a short sentences,

00:33:00: I mean I'm sure I'm based in Germany and real more directions so if what I read communication it's our culture and when you're not used to it it's a bit rude.

00:33:13: And yeah but management but Tom in it

00:33:16: yes should I still face it's very practical application but when you have it in the hybrid progress even for Germans it's very rude communication when you have a very very tiny communication and so people have to learn to communicate,

00:33:31: correctly in such a bad place to ensure of psychological safety.

00:33:37: And because when you have I think communication it's very important to build trust and.

00:33:46: And trust is the key factor for good collaboration.

00:33:51: In transparency is something I'll send to you that include in the show notes is lasat Sutherlands talk about

00:33:57: team agreements especially for remote teams and also hybrid teams

00:34:01: like how are you going to communicate because if you have hybrid or remote teams they're going to become more International it means you get to hire the best person for the job no matter where they live

00:34:11: but that means winter core hours when you're working

00:34:14: what time zone are you talking and are you talking in time zone or do you have to tag everything with the time zone which is also fine,

00:34:21: where do you communicate what thing like we're how do you create long-term more archival documents.

00:34:30: Versus what is appropriate for slack where things could get lost if you have over 10,000 messages and you're not paying for that expensive premium slack things like that.

00:34:40: So yeah that's something it was interesting with the our day of psychological safety by a g next yeah would like to 20 of us,

00:34:48: describe it but we are doing on this day where can people with just wood this because the workshops and what can people expect.

00:34:57: It was an interesting experiment because.

00:35:00: We didn't invite that many people we invited the keynote and I think yeah I invited people for my ethics panel because that's my ethics panels for that's fine but everything else everyone.

00:35:14: Applied and we encourage Partners or more to apply because everyone's sick of the one-way webinar and.

00:35:22: We've done many events this our first focused on psychological safety but we've done many online like.

00:35:28: And we do something different so half of its not even recorded nothing's recorded ahead everything's live

00:35:35: because it's for an experience because we're all bored of webinars and live stream sorry to those watching this now hopefully this is not just interesting because it's basically live stream or a recorded interview

00:35:49: bye.

00:35:50: We crave interaction but I don't think everyone's ready to be in person and we've also decided for our normal October agile to our London we will not have it in person yet,

00:36:00: hopefully for a gene extra Flagship event for advanced modules in next March 20 22 gosh it will be in person

00:36:08: or it will be hybrid itself we will find a way to make it work we're figuring that out still but we don't think everyone's comfortable with being

00:36:16: in one place now and we think we've nailed it our events are in a tool called spatial chat use Chrome only it's very buggy and anything else but it's great in Chrome and it's.

00:36:28: I'll include a link to one of our partners made a video explaining it it's a virtual venue,

00:36:34: so you move yourself around and when you're not near someone you don't hear them when you're near them you hear them so it's fantastic for things like we have a fish bowl which is an agile

00:36:45: conversation where you have five seats but ones always empty so people keep changing out so for all of our workshops including yours.

00:36:55: All our talks are in Zoom meeting not zoom webinar so that we can,

00:37:00: have both recorded and then unrecorded conversation afterwards so everyone feels safe so they can have their camera off until they feel safe if they want to bring their kit if their kids are still at home or they just don't wanna be on camera at all they don't have to be we're all burnt out from that

00:37:15: um it was very interesting and even for the keynote I let Daniel Edmund,

00:37:22: talk about whatever he wanted to he's great and he's talking about creating systemic change through reconstructing masculinity and through the lens of.

00:37:34: Not just sex or gender but race sexuality things like that so he'll bring everything in.

00:37:43: Then we it end up being paired around themes we've got then we have your choice,

00:37:49: each our there's either to talks back to back plus a discussion to 20 minute talks than a discussion

00:37:56: or you can do a workshop for 45 minutes and then we also you don't have to be there for discussion you can take a break everything we do on our online events

00:38:05: I've attended a lot of events that are Non-Stop and that is insane to do to yourself to the people that are running those events that's really stressful and it's really stressful for the individuals to because you feel like you can't miss it

00:38:18: so we build custom breaks and everything we do we encourage people to skip a session if they want to but don't work go for a walk then or a ride as where I roll or however,

00:38:31: you take your break close your eyes take a moment to relax breathe everything it's very interesting the.

00:38:40: Topics we got because if we did it.

00:38:43: We just left it open around psychological safety as we've seen very clearly in this conversation it's very broad so we have things from.

00:38:50: Workshops on deep you mean patterns for building psychological safety building safety from tribal Africa.

00:38:56: To it's yours with I know it sounds really cool right yeah each.

00:39:04: Yeah it's yours yeah yours with Nadia is about virtual and hybrid teams because that is hard and I think reading that.

00:39:14: Feeling we have three from three people from container Solutions talking about balancing or not talking about workshopping about so we go together balancing how do you decide when someone needs to be accountable.

00:39:27: For something versus safe to fail because,

00:39:29: safety fail psychological safety doesn't mean there's not consequences or how to ask people to dance creating safes Petter spaces for more inclusive work because that's the idea.

00:39:41: There's a common phrase that diversity is inviting everyone to the party.

00:39:47: Inclusion is actually inviting them to dance and then I've also heard recently Equity is allowing everyone to pick a song to dance to so I think everything equal yes great description never heard it before,

00:40:01: but and then greatest yeah station faith.

00:40:07: Great thank you so much Jennifer for this talk interview conversation about the topic so be quick,

00:40:16: maybe we could do 20 podcasts and you're not tiny back topic.

00:40:22: Gotta find a time to cut I'll include I'll send you also to include in the show notes where people can sign up it's.

00:40:29: A really inexpensive conference I know most conferences are free but those conferences are massive with massive sponsorship we still have tools to pay for things like that.

00:40:41: But.

00:40:42: You get access to this amazing really small intimate event where the speaker to attendee ratio is always very short

00:40:51: where everyone's part of a community where you can Network as much as you want or as little you still can be that fly in the wall that's like a real

00:40:59: event where you're just observing that's totally fine or you can get as engaged as you want it maybe you'll find your next job or your next business partner or something fun but.

00:41:09: It's different things thank you so much and I mean yeah we're really looking for.

00:41:13: Doing the workshop on your at your dress event and yeah we all see us on the June 11th.

00:41:22: For the birthday of psychological safety great Jennifer thank you so much 

00:41:28: all right so have a nice day in London hope your other Dave yeah but it better especially at you so stay safe and.

00:41:41: Thank you so much and see you bye.

00:41:44: